http://phrozenkeep.it-point.com/forum/dload.php?action=file&file_id=1421 Legacy of the Horadrim Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:17 pm Post subject: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We are pleased to announce a new project by Quatl. The file should be available in a day or two; for now here is the mod description. Legacy of the Horadrim Mod Name:: Legacy of the Horadrim Mod Maker:: Quatl D2 Version: 1.10 final Introduction This ancient tome holds the alchemical secrets of the Horadrim. Its leather binding is cracked with age. The tome exudes a musty oder of rot. Below the crumbled seal of the horadrim, it's cover bears a partially visible inscription: "r.ths t..t li. he.ein, for th.y are th. las. legacy of the Horadr.m" Alchemical tradition stretches far into the darkness of history. Traditional alchemy harnesses the four physical elements: fire and water, earth and air. Alchemy can harness impressive powers from these elements and channel them to the will of man, but this is just a shadow of the true alchemy which Antyrael brought with him to earth from the heavens. True alchemy is a study of the hidden truths. Antyrael spoke to us of a fith essense, the very essense of identity. Herein lies that knowledge which Antyrael has bestowed upon us. Use this knowledge well, harness the quintessens to your will, and alter the very truth of the universe itself. The horadric cube facilitates the practice of alchemy most items must me specialy prepared to awaken their quintessense, and allow it to be directed. An awakened spectral elixer is used for this process. It's afinity to all five of the fundamental essenses reveals the quintessense withen an object. The awakening of a spectral elixer is dependant on the power of the one who awakens it. Thus as one grows in overall power they are able to create more potent transformations. Once the quintessense has been awakened withen an item it may be enhanced by use of alchemical reagents. Simply combining a reagent with an item in the cube will consume some amount of quintessense and alter the nature of the item in some way. Repeated aplications of a reagent are in most cases comulitive. one exception to this is the process involved in adding trigered spells to an item. This requires a number specialy prepared scrolls, empowered with the spell to be added. The power of the spell is controlled by adding one, two, or three scrolls at the same time in the cube repeated applications will increase the likelyhood of the spell being released. Details Legacy of the Horadrim is a mod for version 1.10 of Diablo II - Lord of Destruction. With a heavy emphasis on custom item creation and odd character concepts. Long term planning and resource harvesting are rewarded. Any item may be modified, limited only by character level and available gold. Highlights include: Custom Item Crafting - Unlock the forgoten secrets of Horadric Alchemy - Very flexible crafting system - Modify any item from Sets and Uniques to the lowly broken sword - Create your own powerful artifacts in your own style New socketing possibilities - Sockets are more common and more sockets per item at lower difficulties - Several new gems, and old gems properties have been altered - Jewels are more common - Unique jewels may be found in treasure, or via gambleing - Socketed items can be removed and reused in another item Wield the abilities of other classes to create a truly unique character concept. Spend gold, lots of gold. - So many things to spend money on that gold is never pointless. - Strategic spending becomes necessary and fun part of game play. _________________ The second mouse gets the cheese. ________________ Post subject: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Most recent General Release is Beta 1.4d Download-->Legacy of the Horadrim<--Download ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Version Beta 1.4d Changes: Fixed another circumstance in which the Tome misbehaved - New Tomes should now work - Old saves should load, but broken tomes will remain broken ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Version Beta 1.4c Changes: Horadric Tome: -You MUST have a number of skill points in the tome equal or greater than the level req of the skill you are trying to add. (For example to add a 24th level skill you must have a total of 24 points or more in the tome) -The tome should no longer increase it's level req more that one point at a time. Please try and break it for me All new character now begin with the same equipment: -A club, a bucler, 4 minor healing potions, the Horadric Cube and Tome, a Scroll of Town Portal, and 3 Scrolls of Identify Except the Barbarian, and the assassin They start with 2 clubs(barbarian), or katars(assassin) and no shield. Character atributes unified: -Characters should begin with the same stats, 25 in each atribute. -All characters should gain Hitpoints, Mana, and Stamina at the same rate includeing those from Stat points spent (note: this has been true since v1.2) -Old saves have been broken again New save folder is ...\14c save\ The only diferences between classes now That I'm aware of: -Only Barbarians can Dual weild (other than claws) -Only the Assassin can equip Claws -The Base attack speeds for weapon types are diferent for some classes with some weapons -Base casting speed may be diferent too (I'm not sure) -Some skills will make certain characters disapear or look odd when cast. -Since all of these things are animation related I will be a while before I try to adress any of them. (Attack speed issues would likely be first) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Version 1.4 beta Changes: Characters Saved for versions 1.3 beta and earlier will not work. Sorry. *Characters will now save in [Diablo II]\LotH\ save\ The Horadric Tome should now work as intended. *Masteries are not visible at the moment but they do work, I'm looking into it *the tome repair crystals and recipies should no longer exist, and are not needed *Some skills that don't work for all classes still exist *Characters should no longer gain skill points on level up, nor from quests *these quests no longer give rewards *the book of skill still drops in act 2, don't use it *There are no skill trees, spoons nor cutlery of any kind *I also "lost" the cancel button on the skill tree pages temporarily, not sure where I put it *press escape if you end up in that menu screen to close it Skill scroll prices have been reduced by 1/4th Items that spawned with skill related mods should no longer drop, those that do most likely will not work. Includeing staves, septers etc. This is temporary untill i can make them work properly again. The skill tree pages havn't yet found thier new purpose in life ... Some more disfunctional enchanting recipies have been fixed ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Version beta 1.3 is now availible on the file center --It seems that the initial release was completely broken ----Please get the fresh one from the file center --The batch file I made to setup the distribution archives was fixed ----invalid save files should no longer be included in future releases ----(bad bad lazy Quatl, should know better) --Several minor issues with recipes fixed ----Q cost mismatches for a few reagents (cost was different from discription) ----A reagent that was suposed to work on helms, didn't Undocumented (or poorly documented) features: -Skill scrolls (open ones) may be mixed with items --This does require the item to be Alchemicaly Enhanced first (spectral elixer) --This does use quintessence. --Some skills don't work with some items (the cube will click at you) --This has not been tested very much at all --The result depends on the item type --wands - adds charges more scrolls at a time = higher casting level ---issues, repeated applications do not increase the number of charges (and should) ---Some skills will add to an item but not work properly when activated --Weapons - Adds an On-hit skill activation --Armor - Adds a When hit skill activation ---repeated applications increases the chance of activation(not confirmed) ---more scrolls at a time increases the casting level (not confirmed) --Quatl Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- would love to play , but due to "bad inventory unable to enter game" , i installed as per instructions.....please help Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- cj, I sent you a pm with some sugestions. Has anyone else out there had problems getting the mod to run? --Quatl Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:42 am Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ok... i tried a clean install , patch to 1.10(final) , install loth then copy and install mod .....starting screen = v1.10 d2modsystem 1.02 plugy 3.02....all good sofar... then the four new characters barbazon assyn etc.. but they all come up with "bad inventory cannot enter game" ????? other mods work on my system ....im out of ideas Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Delete the save folder _________________ Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i deleted the save folder , and can now start a new character edit. ok played act 1 , what are these reagents you mention that can be gambled? i have not seen them yet , sofar the game seems well balanced and drop rates are good for gems , but it seems alot like the standard game with plugy... or am i missing something? Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- check the shops, most of the obvious changes are in them for now. Only the spectral elixer is gambled for (the item that lets you begin enchanting an item) the reagents are for sale in different places in different towns (usualy who ever offers repairs), in act 1 charsi has them on the "misc" tab. The skill scrolls are usualy on the gambler's misc tab(they also drop as treasure). Most of the other changes are subtle, some dungeons are bigger, hirelings are a bit more effective, the player classes are less different in their hidden stats. --Quatl Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- hmm, I cant seem to download the file, all I ever get is a file named LoTH, which appears to not be the right filename. Any clues? Malachai EDIT: nvm, got it to download by right click save as...seems it doesnt like the spaces or something... _________________ Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- uuuhhhhmmm no..... there are no changes in the shops???? all i have installed now is d2 1.10 and loth , i thought maybe the loth folder should be extracted into the main folder...but this makes no difference either, my guess is that in the misc tab there should be some scrolls and other stuff ....all i get is throwing weapons and arrows??? i thought maybe its the mod.exe but its installed and comes up on the starting screen. any ideas??? thanx. Malachai29 Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I also see no changes in the shops. I installed as the directions say, and run it via the link provided, with one alteration, instead of "/mod:LotH" I use "-mod LotH". It seems there is something missing, like the loth config file maybe? Malachai EDIT: Ok, I got it to run, after deleting the saved characters, by renaming d2mod.ini to loth.ini, but still dont see any changes in the shops, and my starting gear as a druid is a club and a shield, pots, tp and id scroll. I dunno if everything is getting loaded or not at this point... _________________ Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, clearly there is something severly wrong with 1.2 I've posted a (temporary) link to the new version hopefuly this version will work properly. Hopefuly this will fix the problems. I'd recomend completely removeing the old version, before seting this one up just in case. If the game wasn't reading the new data files your characters are missing items that they should have started with (the Horadric Tome and Cube.) Although you could pass these from a new character via the shared stash. Edit:I just did the install myself from the new archive and it seams to work on my system, please let me know if you still have problems --Quatl Last edited by Quatl on Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:03 am; edited 2 times in total Malachai29 Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I will have to wait til I get home to download, just got to work, but will give it a shot as soon as I can....meaning 12 hours from now... Malachai________________ Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- hehe, no problem, you're doing me a favor at this point. I feel pretty stupid about the initial release at this point. Thank you for hanging in there. --Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1.3 Works just small one thing is there any I can get a bigger stash? Malachai29 Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- with plugy in use, why would you need a bigger stash? you have something like 4 billion pages you can use... Malachai ________________ Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thats better... 1.3 works just need to change target in startup to where its installed...its set to c:\games\d2 etc... mine (and i guess most) are c:\program files \d2 then go to charsi and theres a whole page of new stuff once i worked it out i will give some feedback. cheers cj edit xellent mod... i love it, but i noticed sofar the reagent for 1%faster hit recovery(armor) does not work. if i had more gold i could try them all it seems easy at times but then i run into some ubermonsters and it takes a bit longer , well done , i thought with all the extra skills it would be too easy but its a good balance ..... looks like it will be a long nite Last edited by cj on Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:13 pm; edited 1 time in total Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm glad it's working now @cj: What type of item were you mixing the hit recovery with? a body armor, helm, boots or which? I kinda like never haveing enough money, it makes those "useless" rare drops feel usefull:) With vanilla I always ended up with too much gold and nothing good to spend it on. About the shortcut thing, windows gets cranky if you try to make an invalid shortcut. I just figured out right now that I could just copy the file just long enough to make the shortcut for the archive, I'm slow sometimes;) I'll set it up nice for next version. Reguarding balance, I'll likely be rebalanceing the monsters to make them slightly tougher at some point. When the cash starts really flowing at higher levels all the extra stuff makes it a bit too easy in my opinion. Especialy if you're aggressive about enchanting your hirelings equipment. --Quatl Last edited by Quatl on Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:28 pm; edited 2 times in total Yopurzag Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello QUATL! Great concept to a mod! finally! Let me congratulate u for the ideia and for your work! I?ve playing Diablo2 LOD since the begining. and the mods since patch 1.09 release, and finally a mod that reflets my own ideias of what I really like in a mod! the addictable skills to an item (a book) and the item customize formulas! Ok. Some instalation issue that maybe u could help: After the installing, I run the game and it does not assume the plugY. I?ve to install - by my hand - the complete plugy (version 7.01)in the DIABLO 2 folder and in the LotH folder, to work. I?ve done the install think just like it?s written in the readme. file. No others mods in the D2 folder and I used 1.10 clean files. What?s wrong here? OK, now the skill bugs: To u already know what skills are bugged to the other classes? I?m testing it for my own and i?ll share with u. So far: Artic Blast - bugged(character dissapear during the action) BARB Leap Attack - bugged (character dissapear while jumping) BARB Leap - works fine! BARBARIAN and ASSASSIN double weapon skills don?t work with other classes and maybe U sould remove it... it?s not usefull and it takes room 1 to 6Lv skills- Necro/Druid/Amaz skills work?s just fine. 12 to 18Lv skills- Pal/Sorc/ Barb warcryes work without voice sound - good to all classes and for the ladies. Amaz "strafe" - makes a the female sound with the other classes. Necro sommons and curses - working fine. I will Keep in touch. Keep up your good work. Don?t give it up! Last edited by Yopurzag on Mon Sep 04, 2006 12:59 am; edited 4 times in total cj Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i used it with body armor....mind you it was a rare to begin with and already had a few potions used on it, then i noticed another one (cant remember which now) that was for armor or jewelry and i tried it on rings and amulet ... nothing. seems every now and then theres a potion that does not agree with an item are the potions depending on level or specific item levels ? also notice no tricubing gems etc... did u remove this for a reason? what is the maximum skills versus levels in the horadrim ?? (only asking for character planning) how many item stats can there be on one item using the potions? (this might sort out the first question ) lastly theres a hammer for destroying socket contents....is there any way of creating sockets? Last edited by cj on Mon Sep 04, 2006 12:24 am; edited 1 time in total Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yopurzag wrote (View Post): Hello QUATL! Great concept to a mod! finally! Let me congratulate u for the ideia and for your work! I?ve playing Diablo2 LOD since the begining. and the mods since patch 1.09 release, and finally a mod that reflets my own ideias of what I really like in a mod! the addictable skills to an item (a book) and the item customize formulas! I'm glad you're enjoying it so far Yopurzag wrote (View Post): Ok. Some instalation issue that maybe u could help: After the installing, I run the game and it does not assume the plugY. I?ve to install - by my hand - the complete plugy (version 7.01)in the DIABLO 2 folder and in the LotH folder, to work. I?ve done the install think just like it?s written in the readme. file. No others mods in the D2 folder and I used 1.10 clean files. What?s wrong here? The only thing I can think of off had, is if the "start in" directory of the shortcut is not set properly. Otherwise I'm not sure, the mod should work with d2mod.dll, and d2gfx.dll either in the d2 directory or the mod directory. Yopurzag wrote (View Post): OK, now the skill bugs: To u already know what skills are bugged to the other classes? I?m testing it for my own and i?ll share with u. So far: Artic Blast - bugged(character dissapear during the action) BARB Leap Attack - bugged (character dissapear while jumping) BARB Leap - works fine! BARBARIAN and ASSASSIN double weapon skills don?t work with other classes and maybe U sould remove it... it?s not usefull and it takes room 1 to 6Lv skills- Necro/Druid/Amaz skills work?s just fine. 12 to 18Lv skills- Pal/Sorc/ Barb warcryes work without voice sound - good to all classes and for the ladies. Amaz "strafe" - makes a the female sound with the other classes. Necro sommons and curses - working fine. This is very useful information, thank you. I knew there would be some issues like this. I thought it would be easier to add them all and prune the invalid ones out afterwards. But I didn't know specificaly which ones were poopy. I'll work on trimming these out next version. Yopurzag wrote (View Post): I will Keep in touch. Keep up your good work. Don?t give it up! Thanks for the enchouragement I've needed some This mod was sitting on my harddrive for about a year, in pretty much the same state it's in now. The tome had me frustrated (still does) so I set it aside for a while ... the while ended up being a year. I ran across it the other week and thought I should just blow the dust bunnies off of it and let people see it, and hpefuly enjoy it dispite it's imperfect state. --Quatl Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- cj wrote (View Post): i used it with body armor....mind you it was a rare to begin with and already had a few potions used on it, then i noticed another one (cant remember which now) that was for armor or jewelry and i tried it on rings and amulet ... nothing. seems every now and then theres a potion that does not agree with an item are the potions depending on level or specific item levels ? The only restrictions for reagent mixing should be the quintessence cost, and the item type. Unfortuneatly the item type can be problematic. I don't know how familiar you are with D2 modding (if at all), but there are issues with equivelent item types sometimes that mess things up. For example +duribility should work on all objects of type weapon, except for sub-types combination (javilins and such), and thrown. If I set up the recipe for weapon it sometimes wont work on anything. I asume because it's invalid for some subtype, but I don't really know this to be true. Other times it will work on some of the subtypes but not others in weird ways (like not working for axes but working for swords.) I don't realy know how to predict these issues, so I'm fixing them as I go along at this point. The way I fix them is to "unroll" the item types so if an armor recipe is not working I create 5 extra recipies (torso,helm,belt,shield,glove,boot.) Which makes the file larger (I'm not sure how much I need to worry about this, I don't know what limits there are if any. The file that controls the cube is already 8300, lines in the mod, if there's a limit I'll probly find it) When I made the mod at first I didn't know this, so some recipes are still cranky. Thanks for the info I'll take a closer look at the (armor or jewelry) type reagents. cj wrote (View Post): also notice no tricubing gems etc... did u remove this for a reason? Yes, and yes; I removed them because the gems are availible for sale, and things get out of hand rapidly. I may in a future version add it back in. I've been concidereing various options for rebalanceing gems anyway, especialy in comparison to reagents. If gems go back to treasure drops only, the tri-cubeing will likely return. cj wrote (View Post): what is the maximum skills versus levels in the horadrim ?? (only asking for character planning) The max for skill totals is unchanged, I believe its 20 for inate skill points, and a total bonus of 30. This may change later, after I see what hapens with the mod in hell difficulty. cj wrote (View Post): how many item stats can there be on one item using the potions? (this might sort out the first question ) There is no "hard" limit for how many properties you can add, but... I read a post once that said that if you had too many mods on an item for it to be displayed on screen the game would crash. I've never seen this happen but then I've never had an item with that many mods on it. I'd recomend keeping the number of different modifier types below 15 or so, if you're worried about it. Because of the way the cube works I'll never be able to restrict this. So I'm hopeing it's not true. cj wrote (View Post): lastly theres a hammer for destroying socket contents....is there any way of creating sockets? the hammer will actualy pop the gems etc, out of the sockets so you can reuse them (if it says destroy in the discription, I should fix that they used work that way) As for adding sockets, there is not currently a way to do this. I do plan to implement recipes for this eventualy (I do have some recipies for it but they are disabled for the moment as they were acting strange) --Quatl Malachai29 Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quick question on the druid front, I keep finding things with automagic for other classes, daggers for necros, orbs for sorcs and such, but, I can find nothing for druids, even found a magic wolf head that had +life, but no +skills. Is there something I should be watching for for + to druid skills? Malachai Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quatl wrote (View Post): There is no "hard" limit for how many properties you can add, but... I read a post once that said that if you had too many mods on an item for it to be displayed on screen the game would crash. I've never seen this happen but then I've never had an item with that many mods on it. I'd recomend keeping the number of different modifier types below 15 or so, if you're worried about it. I mostly play Eastern Sun and there you can often exceed the max number of stats, particularly when you add rare jewels to a set item that has more than one socket and you complete the set. As the number of lines in the display gets larger, several things happen: First the font size of the whole item description (when you hoover the mouse over it) gets smaller. You can use that as a gauge when you're entering dangerous territory and that you should probably stop adding stats. Then you won't get any more description (nothing is displayed when you hoover the mouse over the item). At this point the game may or may not crash. Usually it doesn't, I'm not quite sure if it only crashes if you're exceeding another limit or if the crash is random. In ES you can usually avoid the crash by removing one of the other set pieces first so that the set is broken and the set boni don't have to be displayed. Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- @Malachai29: the druid helms should still drop with skills, however they don't always have them. You may have been unlucky. I know I always seem to get the "wrong" class items no mater who I play The only thing in this catagory I changed was adding necro stuff to daggers and removeing them from wands. I never used to use a knife with the necro in vanilla as i had to give up the skills, but they do have the dagger skills so so I thought it was more coherent this way. @Nameless: Thank you for that. It's nice that there's some sign at least. --Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nice Mod. I guess I'll have to try it out fully when I get back from study. Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quatl: Question about the scrolls we combine with the tome. I have found quite a few so far, well, not that many, but enough to start noticing a difference in the way they are titled. When my necro combines ones that have necro in the title, they appear on the tome as necro only. My question here is this, is this going to be true of every scroll that has the class name in the title, or can any class use any scroll? I have a couple amazonian scrolls, but I also have a scroll titled Holy Text that gives Blessed Aim. I have not tried to combine any of these as I dont want to lose the ability to use my tome, but did find that scrolls that say Eastern Treatise (sorc scrolls) are great, my necro has a point in warmth! Malachai Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Any character can combine any scroll with the tome as of now. The mod will automaticaly assign it as a class skill if it is from your class, or as a non-class skill if it's from another class. The names are just to add a bit of flavor. This behavior is a workaround for one of the anoying things about the non-class skill item modifier The only "bad" consequence method is that tomes with skills in them are not completely transferible between classes. Certain skills do not work properly with all classes, currently the mod will let you add them anyway. Yopurzag posted some of these a bit higher up in this thread. Most are obvious though, only the barbarian and assasin can dual weild for example so those skills won't work for a sorceress. Some techniqly work but are lame for other classes, the assasin's martial arts for example are pointless without claws. Nearly every skill seems to work, most "spell" type effects do (there are issued with some druid ones), and most passives seem fine too (except claw mastery as non-assasins can't use them.) Every summon I've tried so far has been fine. (a palidin with druid pets, and some weapon mastery is truely sick if made right, almost boreing ) This will be fixed eventualy. But I'm still trying to fix the other tome problem first. (the musical level requirement problems) I'm pretty sure that the way tomes are built in the cube is going to have to change completely to fix this issue. Keep in mind that the level req for the tome will "jump" when adding a non-class skill of a certain level for the first time. the tome repair crystals only work in the specific case that you have a total bonus count equal or higher than the highest teir level of non-class skill in the tome. (for example a level one non-class skill will jump the level requirement by 6, a level 6 will jump it by 12 etc.) This is the problem that's been making me pull my hair out If you manage to completely mess up a tomes level req (I've done it myself a few times) you can always drop your tome, and pass a new one from a fresh temporary character via the shared stash and them delete the new character. If you only use skills from your own class the tome will work fine, but that's boreing so ... The best way to prevent problems is to follow this roughly: for the first 7 levels only add skills from your own class from 8-13 you can add level 1 skills from other classes (useing the repair formula for level 6 first) from 14-19 you can add level 6 skills from other classes (useing the repair formula for level 12) etc for each teir you can of course use your own class skills mixed in there, it's the non-class ones that make things really anoying. --Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HI Quatl Maybe you can talk to Mirhginoc about the tome issues. It seems he know?s a lot about technical stuff of the game, and general mod making, and maybe he could help. The martial arts skills - the kicks - don?t work so well with other classes. The Amazon doing the fire kick spends an eternity - real slow motion! There are something more: the weapons have different attack speed, depending on class, so several skills can become really clumsy and slow, like the Paladin trying to FEND with a big spear. What is the skill limit in the Tome? for the same skill and for the number of different skills in general... Do you intent to put a limit on the number of diferent skills you can put in the Tome? I thing with a limit of the adiccionable skills (maybe 10 or 15) the Tome gains a strategic flavor and makes u to choose well what kind of skills do you really need. Maybe people will ask for a recipe to erase a skill from the Tome, then. But this must be very difficult to achieve. Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yopurzag wrote (View Post): HI Quatl Maybe you can talk to Mirhginoc about the tome issues. It seems he know?s a lot about technical stuff of the game, and general mod making, and maybe he could help. I should probly make a post about it again in the mod makeing forum. I've been thinking about various options recently for a new aproach. Yopurzag wrote (View Post): The martial arts skills - the kicks - don?t work so well with other classes. The Amazon doing the fire kick spends an eternity - real slow motion! There are something more: the weapons have different attack speed, depending on class, so several skills can become really clumsy and slow, like the Paladin trying to FEND with a big spear. I've noticed the bit with weapon speeds. I'm not sure where these speeds come from. Thoughts about trying to unify weapon type speeds across classes have floated through my head from time to time. Ultimately I'd like there to be as little difference between classes as possible. I know it sounds weird for a diablo 2 mod but the whole class thing has always felt stale to me personaly. I'd much prefer a system that allows more player choice to do what they want. Yopurzag wrote (View Post): What is the skill limit in the Tome? for the same skill and for the number of different skills in general... Do you intent to put a limit on the number of diferent skills you can put in the Tome? I thing with a limit of the adiccionable skills (maybe 10 or 15) the Tome gains a strategic flavor and makes u to choose well what kind of skills do you really need. There is no hard limits on the tome at all. The level requirements are the only thing that limits it. I think that there is a limit on the total combined skill bonus (that is your inate skill from skill points, plus any item skill bonus) you can have per-skill in the game. I believe I heard the number 30 ... but I don't remember where, or from whom so this may not be reliable. I don't intend to limit it, as it would be against the "spirit" of the mod. (What I really wanted originaly was to have the player be able to pick one skill per level from any skill in the game.) For another mod though I would agree about limits, I see the strategy being in makeing up your own "class". What ever combination of abilities you think sounds fun to play. Yopurzag wrote (View Post): Maybe people will ask for a recipe to erase a skill from the Tome, then. But this must be very difficult to achieve. It's actualy not "hard" just time consumeing ... it would take about 1400 recipies I think. This is certainly doable, but I definately don't want to do anything this involved before the tome's mechanics are finalized. As it stands it is looking like the tome will have to be redesigned completely (not in terms of effect so much as the methods behind it.) A recipe to wipe the tome completely might be a good idea in the mean time. Especialy concidering how easy it is to mess up the level req. It would suck if you had a lot of gold invested but it would be less meta-game like than passing a new tome useing the shared stash. --Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am having the same PlugY problem reported earlier. I can get PlugY to run fine without this mod, but when I have everything set up how the ReadMe.txt states, PlugY never loads. Note on Installation in Readme though: It says to set both Starting and Target to ~/LotH, which I assume is a mistake since ~/LotH doesn't contain Diablo II.exe. I've tried a few other things to get PlugY to work as well. The previous poster with this problem wrote that they installed the most recent PlugY in the root and /LotH directories and it worked. This doesn't work for me. I have also tried running the mod through PlugY, but the entire mod doesn't seem to load properly even though the PlugY.log states it loaded D2Mod.dll. Also noted that PlugY.log isn't generating when PlugY fails to load with normal installation. Otherwise, I'm having fun playing the mod =) Nameless Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quatl wrote (View Post): I've noticed the bit with weapon speeds. I'm not sure where these speeds come from. Thoughts about trying to unify weapon type speeds across classes have floated through my head from time to time. Ultimately I'd like there to be as little difference between classes as possible. I know it sounds weird for a diablo 2 mod but the whole class thing has always felt stale to me personaly. I'd much prefer a system that allows more player choice to do what they want. That difference comes mainly from the animation files. The base animation has a certain number of frames which is equal to the speed you get with a WSM 0 weapon with 0 additional IAS. e.g. the Asn claw strike has an animation length of 13 frames while her other 1h attacks have an animation length of 14 frames. The base animation length also determines the max speed as the EIAS you can get from anywhere is capped. The Amazon animation for a spear attack has a different number of frames than the Pally one. To get the same attack speed across classes you have to make the animations the same length or adjust the base speed of that animation. If you do the second one, additional IAS will give slightly different benefits (if you increase the base speed IAS has less effect, if you slow it down, it has more effect). A good discussion about how the animation lenght and the attack speed work together can be found here (the same principle applies to all other actions like casting, blocking, ... as well). You'll have to scroll down a couple of pages to get to the interesting posts on how the animation speed translates into the attack speed. http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=229326 Hope it's not against TOS to post the direct link. That thread doesn't have any info on how to modify the animations, but you should be able to find that here in the modding section. Last edited by Nameless on Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:31 am; edited 2 times in total Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- @kmwill23: I'm not sure what causes this, all the dlls should work in the loth dir. Try the mod installed as directed except: (I'm assumeing you have a fully clean v1.10 install here) move d2mod.dll and D2ModSetup.bat to the D2 dir run D2ModSetup.bat this will "hook" d2gfx.dll to load D2Mod (you can run D2ModSetup.bat again to un-hook it) It's possible that I'm confused, as it's been along time since i started useing d2mod. It may be that I already had the dll hooked for d2mod before I started makeing the mod. If this works for you then I'll have to update the install directions a bit. Plugy should be loaded from d2mod rather than the otherway around, if you're useing the versions included in the archive. If you are useing a newer version of plugy then the load order is up to you (but I don't suport it, because I'm not useing it and so I don't really know about it .) Thanks for pointing out the bit about the readme, you're right the start in should point at the [D2]\LotH directory, and the target should be [D2]. I'll have to fix that. ---------------------------------------- On another note; I've got a new lead on fixing the tome, If it works there will be good news and bad news. As is tradition, first the good news: The tome will not have weird level req behavior The tome will allow selection of any skill with the level unchanged --as in, a necro could add warmth as a level 1 skill rather than as level 6. This would make it even easier to add new skills to the game in a coherant way The good-or-bad-simi-nutural news: The skill system would be completely in the Tome The skill tree would cease to exist, along with prereq skills and such This would free up the skill tree pages for someother purpose --most likely as online help pages Synergies would stop working untill I had a chance to rebuild them. --Although in doing this I'd likely make them more sensible --and un-bind them from class, cross class synergies could get interestinig The bad news for you all: All characters would be invalidated, all current saves would not work. The bad news for me It's alot of work, so it would be a while before the next release. I havn't completely made up my mind yet about this, but it will probly be the way I'm going. How do you guys feel about this? Do you have any sugestions, or complaints? --Quatl Malachai29 Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sounds good to me! As a tester, one should be ready to start new characters at any time, as the creator of the mod may make changes to anything at any time, especially in beta stages. _____________ Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The idea of completely getting rid of the skill tree is intriguing! Looking forward to trying it out =) Quatl, the additional instructions you provided for the "hooking" worked perfectly! PlugY and all. Yopurzag Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I like the idea of morfing the skill trees as we know it. And I agree with most changes U write, Quatl. But I,ve a suggestion: Making a passive weapon mastery tree for all classes. Making an elemental and poison passive tree (to raise Light/fire/cold/poison/magic damage)?to all classes. Making - maybe- a sommon passive tree - i?m not sure Making a special scroll types for both trees. The scrolls can be found only by monster drops... as rare items. All tree sould have upper Lv req. starting on level 30 - maybe - to the usefull to the further game playing (NM and HL). Gain skill by leveling up? No way. To gain a skill point, combine a passive scroll with one or more components (i don?t know what it could be) to make a book of skill (like Radament drop). Use the book skill to raise te skills in the trees. another thing: NO sinergies... regular skills will be boosted with passive tree skills, or - the alternative - with STR/DEX/EN/VIT status. One more ideia: Create a special dungeon/area on each act, with special boosted monsters: Reagents and passive scrolls have bigger drop rate there, according to the act and the level requirements to make a successfull clean on those areas. Maybe is a real hard working move... maybe don?t feat in this mod... but that?s my contribution. I?ve some ideas but I don?t have time, and I don?t know how to do it. Maybe u "can put that a good use" Good weekend for all! Last edited by Yopurzag on Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:12 am; edited 2 times in total Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- @kmwill23:Thanks for leting me know, I'll update the readme @Yopurzag: Some interesting ideas in there. The reason the skill trees have to go has to do with some obnoxious hard codeing in the game. That said new pasive skills are a good idea for replaceing or suplementing synergies. Binding skills to stats more intamately has some apeal. your idea about treasure based only skills is similar to another idea I had, I had pictured them as "Unique" skill scrolls. Only droped by dangerous critters giveing skills that couldn't be had anyother way. Something like this may end up hapening, far down the road. -------------------------In Other News-------------------------- I've been experimenting/thinking more with the changes I was talking about in my last post. It seems like the idea will work, so I've started implementing the basics. I have a new problem, that is there are too many skills between all the classes. It's a display problem though thankfuly. The game can only read 128 unique skill icon sets (little pics on the speed bar and on the skill trees.) So I have to consolidate some, and/or ditch some skills. I need to remove about 70 or so. A complication is that the only place you will be able to see your skills is on the speed bar menu (ya know when you click the left or right mouse skill buttons and all the icons pop up.) This could very easily get confuseing if too many are the same. I did find a way to display more rows of icons, so it should be possible to show 60 or so skills at once. which I think should be enough for any reasonable build, especialy concidering you wont have to put skill points in things just to "climb the tree." I'm leaning towards some kind of useage based Icon system where certain skills share the same icon based on how they are used. Perhaps something like: Primary melee (not sure what this means) Secondary Melee (also not sure) (for spells posibly also by element like fire single target, cold single target...) Spell, Single target damage Spell, Area Damage Spell, nova Damage Spell, Nova Buff (like barb cries) Spell, Nova de-buff (barb cries, some assasin stuff) Weaponlike Ranged (arrows, assasin bombs) Physical Passive (barb resist, ironskin etc) Magical Passive (sorc masteries, summon masteries) Summon Minor (skelletons, wolves, birds...) Summon Major (golems, bears, ...) Defensive aura Offensive Aura etc ... Any thoughts would be helpful. If you have a better scheme that's good too To sumerise since I'm talking too much again 1. I can only have 128 total Icons, but I have 190someodd 2. I can show 60 or so icons, but characters should need less skills than this includeing passives. Do you think this is not true? 3. What do you think about how to break the shared icons up? What would be the least confuseing way for you? Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's some more thinking out loud, about skills: Primary melee ama.jab (spear) [redundant w barb] [tree climber] ama.impale (spear) [redundant w barb] ama.fend (spear) [redundant w pal.zeal] pal.zeal pal.vengance (multi element) bar.double swing [tree climber][only barb(perhapse assasin w claws anyone confirm?] bar.concentrate [Don't really use, anyone like it?] bar.Frenzy bar.berserk [never used it much, any hints?] Secondary Melee ama.power strike (elec/spear) ama.charged strike (elec/spear) ama.lightning strike (elec/jav) pal.sacrifice [?redundant w barb?] [tree climber] pal.smite (shield) [?redundant w charge?] pal.charge (shield) pal.conversion [not sure where this should go] bar.bash [tree climber] bar.stun [tree climber] [lame] Weaponlike Ranged ama.magic arrow (mag/bow) [?tree climber?] ama.fire arrow (fire/bow) ama.cold arow (ice/bow) ama.quided arrow(bow) ama.poison javelin (tox/jav) [tree climber] ama.lightning bolt (elec/jav) bar.double throw [tree climber] [may be cool w amazon stuff... not sure] Assasin only martial arts [these are problematic] [basicaly only work with assasins] [its possible these could be made to work with all mele weapons] [if not they should probly just get removed] ass.dragon tallon (finisher) ass.dragon claw (finisher/ dual-claw only) ass.dragon tail (finisher) ass.dragon flight (finisher) ass.tiger strike (charge) ass.fists of fire (fire/charge) ass.cobra strike (drain/charge) ass.claws of thunder (elec/charge) ass.blades of ice (ice/charge) ass.pheonix strike (multi element/charge) Druid were-stuff ( anyone tested these with other classes?) dru.werewolf (wolf) dru.werebear (bear) [the were attacks are here too as they only work while transformed] dru.Ferral rage (wolf/attack charge) dru.maul (bear /attack charge) dru.rabies (wolf/bear attack) dru.fire claws (wolf/bear fire) dru.hunger (wolf/bear? can't remember for some reason) dru.shockwave (bear nova) dru.fury (wolf) [redundant w barb.frenzy/pal.zeal] weapon like ranged area ama.explodeing arrow (bow) ama.imolation arrow (fire/bow) ama.freezing arrow (Ice/bow) ama.plague javelin (tox/jav) ama.lightning fury (elec/jav) bar.leap attack [simi lame/ teleport is more versitile and less buggy] bar.whirlwind [may be over powered] Spell, Single target damage nec.bone spear nec.bone spirit pal.holy bolt (or single target buff?) [does anyone actualy use this?] sor.firebolt (fire) [tree climber] sor.ice bolt (ice) [?redundant w ice blast?] [tree climber] sor.ice blast (ice) [tree climber] ass.psychic hammer [mostly-lame, is unique in that it doesn't hit targs between] ass.mind blast [not popular with me ... you? Spell, multi target damage ama.teeth (physical or magical ... have to loo it up) ana.multiple shot [simi redundant w strafe] pal.blessed hammer [another one that I don't like anyone use this thing?] sor.inferno (lame, anyone use?] sor.Charged bolt (elec) [iffy] sor.chain lightning (elec) ass.blade fury [lame] dru.firestorm (fire) [all the worst qualities of inferno and charged bolt in one!] dru.molten boulder (fire) [lame when sorc skills are an option] dru.arctic blast [lame and doesn't work for non-druids] dru.twister [never used it] Spell, Area Damage nec.corpse explosion nec.poison explosion (tox) sor.fireball (fire) sor.meteor (fire) [hard to use, simi-lame concidering other options] sor.Lightning (elec) sor.Glacial spike (ice) [tree climber, but i like it] sor.blizzard (ice) [as meteor] ass.fire blast (fire) [simi-unique as it travels over enemies] dru.fisure (fire) [never used it] Spell, nova Damage nec.poison nova (tox) ama.strafe (bow) pal.fist of the heavens (elec+holy) sor.Static Field (elec) [manages to be both too good and too crapy at once] sor.Nova (elec) [lame in the long run, ?elevate and make cool?] sor.frost nova (ice) sor.Frozen Orb (ice) [BROKEN:does any sorc not use this (no that's not a complement)] bar.warcry [I suspect this may be pointless but ...] Spell, Nova Buff bar.Shout bar.battle orders Spell, Nova de-buff ama.inner sight ama.slow missiles [kinda worthless anyone like this one] bar.howl [eh, has potential for non-warriors?] [tree climber] bar.battle cry bar.battle command ass.cloak of shadows [not exactly like the others here but close] Physical Passive ama.critical strike (off/i believe this is spear/bow/comb only)[see bar.weapon masteries] ama.penetrate(off) [see bar.weapon masteries] ama.pierce(off) ama.dodge (def) ama.avoid (def) ama.evade (def) [as with sorc armors, should be combined and weakened] bar.Weapon masteries (off) [I understand why they were made seperate but is it realy necessary] [how about: melee (damage/crit/to hit) ranged (damage/crit/to hit)] [still 6 masteries but more reason to invest in more than one] bar.Iron skil (def) bar.increased speed bar.natural resistance (multi-element/def) ass.claw mastery [see bar.weapon masteries] ass.weapon block [as claw mastery, might be cool if it worked in general] Magical Passive skeleton mastery (critter-type mastery) golem mastery (critter-type mastery) summon resist [should proly make this aply to ALL summons] sor.warmth (mana) sor.Fire Mastery (fire) sor.Cold Mastery (ice) sor.Lightning Mastery (elec) dru.Lycanthropy (were-stuff) Summon Minor nec.raise skeleton (und) nec.raise skeleton mage (und) ama.decoy (temp) dru.raven (prety crapy) [all around crapy skill] dru.Poison creeper (tox/ plant) [concidering other choices pretty weak] dru.Spirit wolf (animal) [tree climber, but less so than some] dru.oak sage (spirit) dru.carion vine (plant / res-control / heal) dru.Heart of wolverine (spirit) [simi redundant with auras] dru.Dire wolf (animal) dru.solar creeper (plant / mana) [far better choices for mana regen exist] dru.Grizzly (animal) dru.spirit of barbs (spirit) [redundant with pal.thorns] Summon Major nec.clay golem (gol) nec.blood golem (gol) nec.iron golem (gol) nec.fire golem (gol/fire) nec.revive (und) ama.Valkyrie ass.shadow warior [tree climber] ass.shadow master [really "broken" if I fix it, useless otherwize] [?rename "clone"?] Summon trap nec.bone prison [I never use this] sor.Hydra (fire) bar.grim ward [lame] [all assasin traps need some help] [I like the idea but they perform poorly] ass.charged bolt sentry (elec) [tree climber] ass.lightning sentry (elec) ass.wake of fire (fire) ass.wake of inferno (fire) ass.death sentry dru.volcano (fire) [never used it] dru.tornado [never used it] curse [generaly dubious] nec.amplify damage nec.dim vision nec.weaken nec.iron maiden nec.terror nec.confuse nec.Lifetap nec.attract nec.decrepify nec.lower resist Self buff nec.bone armor sor.energy shield (mana?hp?) sor.Thunder storm (elec) [lame?] sor.Frozen aromor (ice) [tree climber] sor.shiver armor (ice) [tree climber] sor.chilling armor (ice) [the three sorc armors need work, perhaps just pick one and make it long term viable] ass.burst of speed ass.fade [dubious] ass.blade shield [lame] dru.cyclone armor (multi-element) [dubious] dru. armageddon (fire) [never used it] dru.hurricane [never used it] nec.poison dagger (tox) [totaly redundant w venom] ass.venom (tox) [very nice, might be too good] weapon buff (enchant will work on other characters/minions/self) sor.enchant (fire) [kinda cool for melee classes] Wall [I never use any of these] nec.bone wall (und) sor.blaze (fire) [?should be buff instead?][i like the idea but never use it] sor.fire wall (fire) ass.shock web [pretty much useless] ass.blade sentinal [very useless] Buff aura pal.might pal.thorns pal.concentration pal.blessed aim pal.fanaticism pal.Prayer (heal) pal.Resist Fire (fire) pal.resist cold (ice) pal.resist lightning (elec) pal.salvation (multi element) [the other resist auras are redundant with this one] pal.clensing (de-tox) pal.vigor [almost worthless, anyone dissagree?] pal.meditation (mana) [simi-redundant with pal.redemption] pal.redemtion (mana/anti-res) Debuff Aura pal.conviction (elemntal) Damage Aura pal.holy fire (fire) [like the idea, but poor long term performance] [wepon buff redundant w sor.enchant] pal.holy freeze (ice) [as holy fire, but less so] pal.holy shock (elec) [...] pal.sanctuary (?anti dead?) [feels redundant with other auras, anyone use this?] Weird stuff sor.Telekinesis [mostly worthless] sor.teleport bar.leap [tree climber][redundant w Teleport] bar.find potion [tree climber] [lame] bar.taunt [lame] bar.find item [lame] Something I'd like to avoid is the "null option". That's what I call it when you have the ability to chose something, but it is so blatently inferior to another choice that selecting it is pointless. poison dagger vs venom is one example. venom does superior damage and works with all weapon types, and other than that the skills do the same thing. Thus picking poison dagger is a null option, no one who knows better would do it, and those who discovered they'd done it may feel riped-off (and should.) [tree climber] is similar but less severe, it means that I feel most folk wouldn't take the skill if they didn't have to as a pre-req. (in many cases these would be more desireable if they had different mana/damage balances and or caps. Fire bolt for example is useful at low levels when you have less mana and don't need lot of damage. but it would be nicer if it remained useful as a "machine gun" at higher levels) There are several less blatant cases up there, and some that I'm not sure are nul options; but smell like them. (The skills marked with [reduntant w x] or similar.) I'm sure I've missed some too. Let me know what you think, I'm very far from perfect judgement Nameless Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some comments, I'll keep it short: Berserk: Magic damage to use against PIs and when cursed with Iron Maiden. Double Swing is similar to Dragon Claw. DClaw is a finisher, though and a much slower attack (without IAS, at least). Smite and Charge are quite different. Bash is good if you increase the damage significantly (like in ES). Druid wereform attacks work with other classes, at least in ES where you can get oskill items with Werewolf+Fury and Elemental (basically Werebear with different graphic)+Double Smash(renamed Maul). Hunger works with both. You can probably make any of the skills work with either/both Werewolf or Werebear by setting a column in skills.txt. Mind Blast is very good to stop mobs. In ES you can increase the radius with synergies which makes in very good. Psychic Hammer, Telekinesis would be good skills if they did decent damage. WarCry is good for stunning but does too little damage in vanilla to be used as a main damage dealer. Slow Missiles can be REALLY great if you know how to use it. It can make Archer packs that would normally tear you up in seconds completely harmless. I would combine the masteries, I think the main reason they were seperated was that they had to fill the passives tree of the barb with 10 skills without making the barb ridiculously overpowered. Combine with Ama Critical Strike and Penetrate and reduce to 3 or 4 masteries (melee or 1h / 2h, throwing, archery). I think that weapon blocking could be made to work with other chars and weapon combos, but you'd have to make the animations for it. Most likely that would mean to set it up to use the hit recovery animation for the other classes/ sin without 2 claws. Charged Bolt Sentry is good as a boss killer. In ES it is all-around great because the number of bolts increase with skill level, just like the Charged Bolt skill. Actually Poison Dagger is GREAT when used together with Venom (so I have read, I haven't tried it). If you don't have any other source of poison damage, then PD will work at regular duration but with Venom damage/second which means that it does totally CRAZY damage. A lot of the skills that you marked lame or weak could be pretty decent if they were improved (more damage, better synergies, ...). In ES a lot of those skills are viable because they were improved. Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks Nameless! Some very nice insights there. Interesting about useing poison dagger and venom aat the same time, funny I didn't think of that However I'm not sure it's nessasary, and if I'm doing the skills as all non-attatched to classes poison dagger is a good chance to drop a skill with out loseing anything. In fact restructureing elemental weapon damage skills in general may make more sense. What about haveing enchant for all flavors (that is each element), instead of all the slightly diferent skills for this as a they are? (i like how enchant can bbe cast on other people.) Most of the time lame or useless didin't mean I thought they had to go, just be altered. It's nice to know that others have had some sucsess with that. About psychic hammer/TK do you think having both is helpfull, if TK was better in damage is hammer redundant? TK has extra things over hammer (items activatiation) otherwise they seem similar. (If traps were actualy dangerous TK would have more purpose too.) Sometimes the skill itself isn't lame, per say. Just lame in comparison to other choices one could make in the classless context. (fend vs zeal) Some redundancies do seem to make some needless though. Like teleport vs leap. Not sure why one would take leap, other than for style. Even worse leap is reduntant with leap attack too. Every barb I've used leap atack with, had just one point in leap as a prereq, I never actualy use it.) ---------------------------------------- I'm not really familiar with skill editing, so my thoughts are troubled. There are many coments I didn't make because I don't know what the problems are. I think the first thing is to get the skll system finalized with pretty much all the skills as is. and then tweek. -------------------- I've been thinking about the diferent ways skills are scaled. In light of de-treeing synergies don't realy work as well as they could. it's hard to see them/ work with them without the tree interface. And intelectualy its the designer (me) shapeing your decisions forcibly into what the designer thinks you should be playing. I believe that the motivation for blizzard for synergies was primarily an apoligy for the tree based skill prereqs, sort of making us feel better about that and all the points we need to put in crap at lower levels because we couldn't choose the skills we wanted (not a very good reason to keep them.) I'd much prefer if all the skills scaled better. Some posible methods include Masteries (especialy if more were added), Stats granting bonuses to skills (this already hapens partialy more mana = more uses, more str = more weapon damage, dex = less missing etc., or scaling based on character level (also the "weird" idea below.) Not sure what else, I'm sure there are other things. It would be nice if you could take a skill and feel good about it, and use it during the whole game. Pretty much all games suffer from this sort of thing. I had a crazy thought this morning while dozing in and out of conciousness. I think a use based skill system might be possible. Wherein skills increase in effecicy the more you use them. I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not even if it is possible though. Certainly not with the current structure of the design as far as skill damage progression. Might be interesting if the skills were "streatched" more (like skill rank going from 1-100 vs 1-20.) may be this idea belongs in a different mod though Along with this idea came thoughts of unified skill sets (not enforced in the game but as a design tool.) Skills, in terms of stereo-typical character role they serve. For instance caster, fighter, sneaky, suport, summoner etc. Likewize if you can toss lightning do you need lighting bolt (javilin)? Would it be better to replace/reorginize/create some elemental lines of spells (ie poison(bolt/crawler/stream/cone/ball/nova/region), Fire(bolt/crawler/stream/cone/ball/nova/region) etc ? And have weapon based effects primarily stronger vs single targets? Takeing out some lines between classes really changes the dynamics of the game obviously. All skills have to be viable choices in general, not just viable because you have nothing else for the role. Of course the goal is not to make all characters the same, it's in fact to make them more different. So I'm not saying there should be one strategy, or that all skills should serve all strategies. The feeling that there are one or a few fun and effective builds per class is a large part of the motivation for me to try something different with this mod. Technicaly I don't need to remove any actual skills, just icons. but it's made me think that perhaps some are not adding anything to the game. If that's true, there's no reason to keep them. As always I apritiate your comments. --Quatl Nameless Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Teleport is usually better than the alternative (Leap, Dragon Flight). Leap has area knockback and it is sometimes useful just for that. This doesn't mean that it is not dispensible. AFAIK Leap Attack is badly programmed (if the target moves while you leap, then the attack auto-misses). You probably don't need both, maybe you could combine them. Apart from item picking, the biggest diff between Telekinesis and Psychic Hammer is the element, I think, but I doubt that you really need both. Maybe the Knockback works differently, too. I hear that the traps are downright deadly in Median, so there is nothign that stops upping their damage in your mod and make Tk a useful skill. If you make Enchant type skills for every element, then you may want to consider making them exclusive (only one may be active at a time). Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nameless, If you insist on continueing to be so helpful, I'll be forced to add you to the credits Your analisys of the transit skills jives with mine, I think leap is a gonner for sure. Leap attack and dragon flight I'm less sure of. Dragon flight has some of the problems all martial arts have. (I've been thinking of marking most melee attack skills as finishers if martial arts stay in) And as you say leap attack is buggy, it can be fun to jump on people and stick pointy things in their heads though Very good point about elem enchant skills, I was thinking this, as wellas perhaps a less effective multi-element version, perhaps 1/5th damage but to all 4 "primary" elements (fire/cold/elec/poison). Related thought: how does something which changes physical damage to magic (magic damage type not elemental) at a poor ratio (like 1/4th or 1/3rd.) for weapon strikes either as a per activation skill (ala bash etc) or as an enchant style one (lasting duration)? --Quatl Nameless Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quatl wrote (View Post): Related thought: how does something which changes physical damage to magic (magic damage type not elemental) at a poor ratio (like 1/4th or 1/3rd.) for weapon strikes either as a per activation skill (ala bash etc) or as an enchant style one (lasting duration)? Half of the sentence is missing, so I can't figure out what you want? Know if it is a good idea, how to do it, ... ? If you want to know more about which skills are useful and have the time, then you might want to read some of the build guides on diabloii (sans the gear section). They can often give you good insights into skills. e.g one Barb guide totally dismisses Grim Ward while another finds it useful for certain situations. Same for the 'sin, one guide dismisses CoS while it is a cornerstone for another one. Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- oops i ment to say "how about" not "how does." My brain is a bit defective sometimes so my hands like to type different words (letters too) than I tell them too on ocasion. It can be really funny on ocasion when they get extra creative about it Reading some guides is a good idea, especialy concidering I'm not into multiplayer so much, I'm sure some skills are better in that context. And some folks might want to put to gether a multiplayer mod game at some point. I don't think I'll be removeing anything at first, just giveing the redundant skills the same icon or something. I want to solve the mechanics then move on to getting creative --Quatl Nameless Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can skip all the guides that focus on PvP and some of the skills are indeed much more useful for PvP than for SP play. I think it is a decent idea to have skills that convert a portion of the damage to elemental, but I would do it more for attack skills than for buffs. Other people will disagree and prefer skills that do 100% conversion and use those only against PIs. Jounk33 Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi at all. My first post in Keep. I looking in Keep since 2001 but never register because of my bad english. Great mod. When I'am still playing D2 intensivly, I've started with a projekt like this, but never get completly. One Question: Why is gemmergeing in LotH deleted ? I mean this was a bad desicion. And one proposal: To making Equipmet socket equipmet, an acid can be pursached in Vendorshops. The more the acid brings sockets in Equipment, the more the acid will cost. Becuse of your mod I'am installed and play D2 again Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jounk33 wrote (View Post): Hi at all. My first post in Keep. I looking in Keep since 2001 but never register because of my bad english. Great mod. When I'am still playing D2 intensivly, I've started with a projekt like this, but never get completly. [...snip...] Becuse of your mod I'am installed and play D2 again I'm glad you like it It's nice to know I've made diablo fun for you again, that's high praise indeed. I hope as I continue with the mod you enjoy it even more. Jounk33 wrote (View Post): One Question: Why is gemmergeing in LotH deleted ? I mean this was a bad desicion. I understand how you feel. The problem is, that with gems for sale, the cube upgradeing is too powerful. When you get to act 2 you will find the next grade of gems for sale there And so on as you get to new towns. Jounk33 wrote (View Post): And one proposal: To making Equipmet socket equipmet, an acid can be pursached in Vendorshops. The more the acid brings sockets in Equipment, the more the acid will cost. Adding sockets to items is somthing I'd like. There were some problems with the way I was trying to do it so I disabled them untill I figure it out. This will be possible eventualy. I know it can work because I've seen it in other mods. Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On to serious buisiness The tome now apears to work! It turns out that I was able to be very sneaky and wedge all the skill icons into one file after all. I was mislead by some advice that while true in general, wasn't quite true for this case. Which means I can wait to mess with the actual skills untill a later release. I'm going to put together a new beta archive after testing a bit more. To be cautious I think i'll post a temporary link when it's done, and let you folks bang it around for a bit before asking for a file center update. Unless I find some major problem it should be up in a few more hours. ******It's been a few more hours, check my first post in this thread for a link****** I really should stop playing with text colors --Quatl IndianaMaggot Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey i am running v1.4b and i go to create a new necromancer and this pops up Assertion Failure Location: D2Common\DATATBLS\DataTbls.cpp, line #2190 Expression: pbData EDIT: It is still not working... I really dont feel like reinstalling Diablo II. _________________ "Do You Serve a Purpose, or Purposly Serve?" I am always willing to beta test for anyone just PM me. Last edited by IndianaMaggot on Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:55 am; edited 1 time in total Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not sure what the problem is, it's running fine here with necros. Give me a sec and I'll do a full bin recompile to make sure. and post a new link. Try it again; here's the link for convienience. --Quatl Last edited by Quatl on Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:34 am; edited 2 times in total Message Malachai29 Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I used my old necro, and he seems to be missing a few skills, those that I have in my tome arent even all coming up....so right now I am missing quite a few summons...any ideas? Should I start a new character? _________________ Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- old saves are broken with 1.4b. you shouldn't be seeing your old saves at all though as I changed the save directory ... weird. [EDIT: Hopefuly the new archive will work properly, I've updated the link at the top of the thread. I have to hit the sack for now, I'm gonna cross my fingers. If 1.4b still doesn't work for anyone let me know, and I'll fix it tomorrow when I get home.] [EDIT 2: Actualy If you guys could let me know if it DOES work I'd apritiate it I really need a better protocol for releases. ] --Quatl Malachai29 Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- actually, save path was changed and all, I just ported my characters over...jumped the gun and didnt read the changelog...I do that from time to time...my fault really! _________________ Quatl Paladin Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's good to hear. I guess I'm a little paranoid about it now, concidereing what happened with 1.2 --Quatl Yopurzag Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The mod looked very promissing... but it is taking a different path. I hope u can make a nice work anyway... and get a use for those empty and useless skill trees. Last edited by Yopurzag on Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:13 am; edited 1 time in total IndianaMaggot Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok I completely reinstalled Diablo II and updated to LOD v1.10 Final. It is still giving me the same problem Is there something you want me to send you? Or do you think you know the problem? _________________ "Do You Serve a Purpose, or Purposly Serve?" I am always willing to beta test for anyone just PM me. Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IndianaMaggot wrote (View Post): Ok I completely reinstalled Diablo II and updated to LOD v1.10 Final. It is still giving me the same problem It sounds like there's a problem with the data tables (.bin files) They apear to work fine for me and at least one other person though, so it may be that they just arn't loading properly. Here are a few things That could cause that: Did you follow the instructions for installing D2Mod? If not, this would most likely be the problem. (copy D2Mod.dll and D2ModSetup.bat to your diablo II directory and run D2ModSetup.bat. This alters one of the Dlls so that it will load D2Mod. You can run the bat file again to uninstall it.) MAke sure you have all of the dlls listed in the readme (there are a few new ones since last release) The shortcut "start in" folder (should be c:\program files\diablo II\LotH most likely) If you unziped the mod over the old copy you could try deleting the LotH directory and re-extracting the files. If none of these work, I'm not sure what to try next. If it's still broken, send me your crash log (it's in the d2 folder and should be named something like"CRASH D2040901.txt") If there's more than one send me the one with the most recent date. --Quatl [EDIT: Just in case you missed the post when the page changed. I did a recompile of the mod when you first reported your problem. Tthe link on the first page points to the recreated zip.] Last edited by Quatl on Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:31 am; edited 3 times in total kmwill23 Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Doh! No more uber powerful characters =) I guess it's a needed balance though! Phlebiac Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Two things, that came to my mind, while playing through the first levels with my Necrobarbarian . 1. With the new skillsystem and without some questrewards you are missing at least 12 skillpoints. Maybe you could make an item for those questrewards which reduces the levelrequirement of the tome by one or two points. 2. While my raise skeleton skill is considered an item based skill, I lose all my skeletons on every levelup. Is there a workaround for this? _________________ Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phlebiac wrote (View Post): Two things, that came to my mind, while playing through the first levels with my Necrobarbarian . 1. With the new skillsystem and without some questrewards you are missing at least 12 skillpoints. Maybe you could make an item for those questrewards which reduces the levelrequirement of the tome by one or two points. 2. While my raise skeleton skill is considered an item based skill, I lose all my skeletons on every levelup. Is there a workaround for this? Necrobarb huh? sounds interesting RE:#1:I would like to address the missing points from quests, i'm not sure exactly how yet. One thought is to have the book of skill be cube-able somehow into special skill scrolls that don't add to the level req of the tome (most likely book + normal skill scroll --> one (or more) special scroll for that skill.) This would be a bit more complicated than it sounds though. I have a couple other things I'm experimenting with. Characters may also start with such a "special" skill scroll in the future. Keep in mind that as you don't need prereq skills you in effect have a few more skill points ( for example you don't have to put a point into raise skelleton to get points in skeleton mage.) RE:#2:Speaking of skeletons, I agree it's anoying to have to resummon everything when you upgrade the Tome. I think it works this way to prevent you from equiping an item with summon skill plusses, summoning critters, and then equiping something else. (in other words cheating ) We may have to live with the anoyance. kmwill23 wrote (View Post): Doh! No more uber powerful characters =) I guess it's a needed balance though! True, when I first started on the mod, the plan was roughly, "heavy custom item crafting" (because Sir General went MIA, and I loved his rune mod) pluss unifying the classes' skill lists (because I was pretty bored with them after playing D2 so much , and i thought it would be more interesting than makeing my own set of new classes to get bored with). The Tome arose as a comprimise solution to the second part. I was never very happy with the uberness. I think in the long run, it's probly more fun without the uber At least for me, I get bored eventualy when things are too easy. --Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you looking now for a final Version ? I'am interesting to translate your mod in german, of course with your permission. I like this mod, because with the new offered Tome-Levelsystem, we can make every class we want. And the only thing originaly D2 isn't comlete, is crafting. But this mod allows crafting what ever want. Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jounk33 wrote (View Post): Do you looking now for a final Version ? I'am interesting to translate your mod in german, of course with your permission. I like this mod, because with the new offered Tome-Levelsystem, we can make every class we want. And the only thing originaly D2 was not comlete, is crafting. But this mod allows crafting what ever want. It would be nice if people could play the mod who don't read english. The tables are in the mod archive If you wanted to translate them and give them to your friends I certainly don't mind. I'm not really possesive about things like that Most of the changed strings are at the bottom of patchstring.tbl however some other strings are altered too. I havn't counted them but I think there are around 150 or so. You could export most of them from patchstring and import them into the german table (I think) and then translate them in place. That would catch most of them. I'd recomend waiting a while though for the following reasons: The string tables are not what I would call "clean" there is alot of old crap in there from various experiments that didn't pan out. I havn't gotten around to removeing them. Translateing these strings would be a waste of time, and worse I might reuse them for something else, makeing your translations popup in odd places. As for includeing translations in the official release, I don't think I'd like to pursue that untill the mod is more stable. There is a lot of string work left to do (I plan to have every skill scroll show the skill discription. Similar to what used to show on the skill tree mouse overs. This will add a huge nomber of strings, since I don't think I can just "steal" the old ones because of formating problems) Other structures I'm useing for some text may still change a few times, I'd hate for you to have to translate everthing over and over Lastly; I would not be able to offer suport for non-english readers, should they encounter problems or have questions about the mod. As I've been too lazy to learn any other languages. By the way, when the mod is closer to "complete", I'm planing to release all the source files anyhow for people to learn from. You may want to wait untill then. That you would ask to do a translation is a big complement thank you! You must really like it to want to do something like that to help out. --Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's true, I like such kind of mods. The most mods comes with tones of new uniquire and sets, and special map and storychanges. Thay all become a little boring after two games. So I've looking always for mods that makes the game as alternation as possible. Okay, I'am waiting for a final Version of LotH for the german translation. EDIT: Version 1.4b seems not to work for me. I have no Loth Startitems(Cube, Tome) and all drops are normal D2 Equipment. All files listed in Readme are in the LotH folder. And I changed the shortcut as discriped. The previous version works fine. Last edited by Jounk33 on Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total Phlebiac Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Did you copy the d2mod file and the bat file to your rootfolder and start the bat? I missed that one too. _________________ Jounk33 Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- D2mod.ini and dll and the setup.bat are in the LotH folder. Must I start the bat ? That is not discriped in the readme. Phlebiac Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know. It was in the first readme and since it did not work without it, I tried it again et viola, it works. You have to copy the d2mod.dll and the setup.bat to your normal D2 folder and execute the setup.bat. I don't know, what it does, but after that, Legacy works for me. After playing, you can simply run the setup.bat again and play other mods or whatever you like. _________________ Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That pesky readme file I just re-re-re-edited it to explain about D2Mod. Hopefuly there won't be any more people confused about it after the next update. It seems I had an old version of the readme lurking around, and my batch file was copying it from the wrong place. I apoligize for my incompetence there folks. [Edit] the procedure is: Copy d2Mod.dll and D2ModSetup.bat to your Diablo II folder. Run D2ModSetup.bat to install D2Mod. (This will alter your D2 Instalation so that D2Mod can load the plugins used by LotH. To remove it simply run D2ModSetup.bat again) [End of Edit] --Quatl PS: Beta v1.4a will be released in a few hours, it shouldn't break the saves I don't think but it might. (includes a fix for a potential crash issue) Last edited by Quatl on Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:58 am; edited 2 times in total Jounk33 Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay finaly it works. Thanks Maybe that in Act1 more scrolldrops are necerssary. My Testnecro recive no scroll before Andariel and have low money to pursache one. Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think the problem is not enough gold. Since staves/scepters/daggers no longer drop with skill modifiers, a major source of income is missing. I think I'll drop the scroll the scroll prices more drasticaly. Then add another item to the cube recipies for other item skill enchanting that is expensive. That way geting skills on the Tome will be almost free, but adding skill activations or charges will stay expensive. This will take me a little while to put together. Probly a few days. --Quatl Malachai29 Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am still having issues with the tome, when I went to put in summon wolves on my druid, it jumped the req lvl 6 lvls....from 3 to 9, and I was only 7 at the time. I would hate to not put anything into my tome til lvl 6 just so I could have wolves when I should be able to have them...is this normal behavior? _________________ Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Malachai29 wrote (View Post): I am still having issues with the tome, when I went to put in summon wolves on my druid, it jumped the req lvl 6 lvls....from 3 to 9, and I was only 7 at the time. I would hate to not put anything into my tome til lvl 6 just so I could have wolves when I should be able to have them...is this normal behavior? Thanks for this. This is exactly why I need you guys around: To help me when I'm stupid I didn't test adaquately and you're right, it's less "fixed" that I thought I am fixing it more fully now. (I'll have to alter and visualy check about 1200 recipies so it will take a bit. Probly a few days.) --Quatl For the programing oriented among you, I'd apritiate if you could look at the following sequence of logic and tell me if you can find a problem with it: Code: When adding a skill If TotalBonus = 30 Add Skill Subtract 6 from LevelReq Increment TotalBonus Else If TotalBonus = 24 Add Skill Subtract 6 from LevelReq Increment TotalBonus Else If TotalBonus = 18 Add Skill Subtract 6 from LevelReq Increment TotalBonus Else If TotalBonus = 12 Add Skill Subtract 6 from LevelReq Increment TotalBonus Else If TotalBonus = 6 Add Skill Subtract 6 from LevelReq Increment TotalBonus Else If SkillLevelReq = 1 Add Skill Add 1 to LevelReq Increment TotalBonus Else If SkillLevelReq = 6 AND TotalBonus > 6 Add Skill Add 1 to LevelReq Increment TotalBonus Else If SkillLevelReq = 12 AND TotalBonus > 12 Add Skill Add 1 to LevelReq Increment TotalBonus Else If SkillLevelReq = 18 AND TotalBonus > 18 Add Skill Add 1 to LevelReq Increment TotalBonus Else If SkillLevelReq = 24 AND TotalBonus > 24 Add Skill Add 1 to LevelReq Increment TotalBonus Else If SkillLevelReq = 30 AND TotalBonus > 30 Add Skill Add 1 to LevelReq Increment TotalBonus This is a translation of the logic in the Tome recipies, as I'm implementing them now. It sounds good in my head, but I may be missing something. Keep in mind that adding a skill bonus automaticaly sets the "zero point" to the level of the skill. So adding a level 6 skill to a tome that has a levelreq of 6 (from 6, level 1 skills) would make the Tome's levelreq = 12. --Quatl Jounk33 Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'am playing an assasine and buy some Scrolls (Tigerstrike, Werewolf) But nearly every Skillicon in Skilllist is difrent to the original. Tigerstrike is shown as staticfield, werewolf is shown as poisionworm. (Sorry, I don't know the originaly english names for the skills) In the other game with a necro the icons are shown corectly. Maybe there is a failure anywere for the assasine skilling. ? EDIT: To explane better. Here two shots: ??? Were are the images ? Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So the skills are correct but the images are wrong? I'll look into it, it's probly just some wrong numbers. Did you try the same skills on a necro? In other words have you tried either of these skills on another character and had them look right? --Quatl [EDIT: Never mind I found it, some icons are in the wrong order. I'll fix it for next release. Keep an eye out for other problems like this, I'll tryto double check them all myself too. (looks like most or all druid/assasin skills are scrambled)] Jounk33 Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Another thing, when I want equip a merc, the objekt is lost. No matter what I equip, the item lost and no bonus the merc is given. That isn't much bad for me, because all the time I playing without mercs. But this seems to be a bug. Myhrginoc Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This mod uses the mercmod plugin. If you are equipping by dropping on the hireling icon in the main game window, that is a risky move (problem with the drag-and-drop code). Open the hireling's inventory screen and place the item on the "paper doll" location instead. _________________ Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So are you changing the tome settings again? Currently, I think the 'bugged' method that it's using now is pretty much the only thing keeping everyone from being hidiously overpowered. In 1.3, you could pick your class skills and any skills from another class. This means skeletons + golems + might/concentration/fanat, sorcs + conviction, skelemages + fire goglems + conviction, any caster + warmth, any melee + masteries, any melee + ww/zeal/shapeshifting + might/concentration/fanat, etc. In 1.4, your own skills adding to the lvl requirements actually does a lot of nerfing (which would be needed). This comes with some weird side effects of previous bad balancing that already existed in the game (and I'm sure a lot of it wasn't even intended). Concentration normally is better than might (concentration starts with more ED%, gets more ED% per level, and has 50% uninteruptable), but now that the first point costs 18 level req, you have to get it to lvl 31 (48 lvl req) to match an equal lvl req might (lvl 48). Another good example would be the zon's elemental arrow attacks. Ignoring the fact that the higher skills have better effects (like explosion/freezing), to get them to actually catch up with their predecesors takes a LOT of points. But then this creates two problems; some lvl 1 skills would become overpowered (skeletons), and some later level skills which aren't that powerful will be ignored (resist fire/ice/lightning are the same, but have different level reqs.) So let's go into overpowered with 1.4. There currently is no level cap on skills so you can get a skill to lvl 99 and be fine. 'Good' skills have higher level reqs, but what about skeletons? Summon Skeletons and Summon Mastery are both lvl 1 skills. What's another good skill to combine with it? Might! Might is lvl 1. So at lvl 99, this gives us lvl 33 skellies with lvl 33 mastery and lvl 33 might. Taking this further, a normal necro would get 20 points of skellies + mastery getting him 8 skellies doing 124-127 damage, 605 attack and defense, and 359 life. Our shmancy necro with 33 points of skellies + 33 points of mastery gets 13 skellies doing 387-390 damage, 995 attack and defense, and 600 life. Wow! Look at that difference. We're not done yet, though because we have lvl 33 might giving us +360% damage (x4.6) which brings us up to 1780-1794 damage. So our naked lvl 99 necro has 5 extra skeletons doing over 14x damage each! A normal necro can only double it with amp damage. In fact, you could even sacrifice a few points of might to get amp damage, which would probobly bring you up to 3k skellies. Mercs get might aura too, so you could even ignroe that and go skel/skel/amp and get something around 45/45/9. Now compare this to another fairly standard build... the hammerdin. Lvl 20 hammers and lvl 20 conc is 533-544. That puts the lvl req up to 57. Lvl 99 req brings us up to 41/41 and 2064-2081. So a tripple lvl 1 build totally outshines a two skill higher end build that is almost entirely usless until you max it. You might think that it might not really be fair because of the lack of synergies, but remember that you don't even have enough skill points for the synergies. But let's go after the sorc. Easy first choice is conviction. You only need lvl 25 conviction because there's a -150 resist cap (which is obtained at lvl 25). That's a whopping 54 lvl req, leaving 45 points left for a spell. So lets go for some big guns: Forb, blizzard, meteor. Forb goes up to lvl 16 and 206-218 with conviction bringing it to around 515-545. Normal naked forb with maxed synergies came out to 366-373 before mastery (which brought it up to around 786-801). Also remember that conviction is better than ice mastery AND it breaks immunities. Blizzard goes up a bit higher to lvl 22 and 660-711 damage with conviction bringing it up to 1650-1777 damage. Remember that a normal naked lvl 20 blizzard with full synergies did 2620-2844 before ice mastery (which brought it up to 5633-6114). Meteor also goes up to lvl 22 and has a damage of 1027-1089 and 278-302 dps, with conviction bringing it to about 2567-2722 and 695-755 dps. Normally it's 2865-3057 with 411-449 before mastery (which brings it up to 7534-8039 with 1080-1180). So the cross class skelemancer kicks a ton more ass, while everything else is nerfed. So, let's take this further. Ice Blast is actually pretty a solid. Ice blast goes up to lvl 40 with 883-906 damage. 2207-2265 with conviction. Normally naked with full synergies it's 2129-2238. So basically the strategy is to use the most low level skills as possible. I think you bit off a little more than you can chew at the moment. If you plan on keeping this system, you really have to rebalance every single skill in the game. Right now, every melee char is going to take a mastery and might (both of which are lvl 1) and become much more powerful, while casters really take a blow from their lack of high level spell choices. Naturally you can't just make the good skills weaker and then bring them down to lvl 1, because then things like forb/blizzard will completely outshine ice bolt/ice blast (which were pretty much only used in the first place until you were high enough level to get the uber skills). I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying to give you the biggest possible epiphany I can early on so you don't end up with even BIGGER issues later on in your mod. I like your idea, and I wish you luck, but you really need to give a long hard look at all the skills at once. It's a lot easier to rebalance 30 skills on one character than it is to balance 210 skills which weren't supposed to be combined in the first place. Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wow Fish of Muu! That's one big juicy post full of great critacism I apritiate the harsh and thorough nature of your post. I really need this sort of talk to get my creative juices flowing Some of your coments had ocured to me and others are new. A few comments: The restriction on the tome will be 1 skill point add-able per level (or the tome becomes unuseable untill you catch up. ( testing with a non level req related stat is just a necessary mechanic to achieve this, as the level req itself is the problem) And no level 6 skills before level 6, no level 12 skills before level 12 etc. In other words the same way the game works normaly except for all skills for all classes. (asumeing the new scheme actualy works this time, which it probly won't as it really doesn't want to ) [EDIT: I think I misunderstood your coments pertiaining to this] The skills will definately need to be rebalanced, especialy with atention to redundant skills; both from the perspective of bad (skills that do almost the same thing but one has something extra, like zeal vs fend) and good (many of the things you mention.) There will be a fair amount of "pruneing" done in the future. Some skills are just plain broken (in terms of being too good) even in vanilla. These require adjustment or removal. Frozen orb is one example. Likewise some skill combinations are much nastier than others. I don't think that balanceing is going to be quite as complex as you say however, it will be alot of work. It isn't really 210 skills balanced in every combination because some skills are really mutualy exclusive, and some don't influince each other directly. Masteries are a source of concern as they pretty much act as magnifiers for broad classes of skills. Auras are much more effective than normal too with summoning availible. Skeletons + auras in particular as there are so many of them (it is almost certain that skeleton numbers and power levels will be reduced to similar levels as wolves. And wolves and skeletons may become mutualy exclusive) Some auras will likely be drasticaly reduced in strength. ( you mentioned might, but thorns + skeletons + skeleton mages + wolves + golem of the day + valkiery + shadow master + huge mana reserves, is almost worse ... trust me Critters explodeing every where) The mod is still young, and monster strength has not been adressed at all. Ultimately the critters will need to be stronger clearly. How much stronger and in what ways I'm still rolling around my head. I don't think it makes sense to start this process yet, as it would lead to back and forth "double-balanceing." Which usualy leads to everthing feeling weird and ad-hoc (because of course it is.) I don't want to just give monsters more hps and more damage. I'd like diferent kinds of critter require diferent methods of attack and defence, thus make being over specialized a bad idea. Vanilla D2 doesn't have nearly enough of this in my opinion, imunities are relatively boring (and inefective) ways of forceing versitility. With my first sorceress experience (when diablo was first released), I mulched my way through normal with no real problems. But when I got to nightmare and ran into cold imune undead all over the place I was screwed. I'd over specialized "dumping" points into nothing but cold spells, and I had no way to kill cold-imunes. This factor should be a part of the whole game (not elemental imunities per say but various "confounding factors".) I don't want people to be stuck like my sorc was, but rather to learn early that versitility will be required of them. There should be a strategic "tension" to players' strategy, between specialization and versitility. I have some ideas on how to address this too (particularly how masteries work and how they are split up), but they are not ripe yet. And between conceptual aspects like kill speed vs lone targets vs area, and such things. Conflicts like this are largely missing in vanilla precicely because each class ia "a kingdom unto itself." How exaclty this works will depend on the specifics of the skills what ever they end up being. I don't know what if any limits exist on total skill levels. It's something I will have to look into eventualy. I know that some skills "cap out" and it may be possible for me to cap others myself. [EDIT: Actualy I just thought of how to do this very easily with the cube, so its doable] The word "Beta" in my case does not imply "feature complete" In fact I probly should have called this an alpha ... too late now This mod is ambitious. In part that's the point. For me it's just not worth the efort of banging my head into my computer screen unless the prize is big. I enjoy agrivation, hard work and the rewards which come from doing the hard thing, and makeing something worthy. Something that I myself can spend hours upon days upon months playing. Somthing as rewarding as diablo 2 itself was for me for so long. Anything less just wouldn't drive me. If it wasn't so damn hard I'd have never goten this far. The project would have died of boredom in the crib. It may be that I'm not up to the task. I certainly mess things up often. Many times I'm slopy, and I often out smart myself. I'm certainly not as capable as some of the giants who lurk in the dark corners of this message board. I'm thankful to have so many people who are willing to help me out, with their deeper knowledge, and skills. This mod as it is is as much a creation of the FrozenKeep comunity as it is mine. Only time will tell, but in the striveing is it's own reward to a degree. And If I make something that I really enjoy, I figure some one else out there will enjoy it too. And may be alot of people who would never invest the time and agrivation to make something like this for themselves, can enjoy something which I've made. I don't think there's any greater reward than bringing enjoyment to other folks. If an hour of my effort brings an hour of pleasure to 20, 30, or a hundred people that's a real acomplishment in my book. Even if, judged on it's merits, my mod is complete crap Vanilla Diablo 2, for all the complaints I've had about it over the years, is still a great game, and a great platform for creating something new. It is also full of poor choices, imbalance, and (in my opinion) overly restrictive structures. None of which can detract from the fact that It's the only game that's had a permanant place on my hard drive since the first day it was released. I don't have the recources that the "big boys" have and I could never make an engine or all of the great art required to make a game like D2 from scratch. But I'm tenacious, stuborn and ocasional clever, and maybe that's enough for me to do something great with what Blizzard has given us to work with. I'm babeling now though, so I'm off to bed. Thanks again for your coments, it is rare that people will offer each other such honesty and directness. I really apritiate it when it is offered, and I'll give your coments weight in my thoughts as the mod develops. Jounk33 Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'am not sure that I understood the last two posts complete. But I think with this concept we can have a real own character. Of course, this mod seems not to be used for Multiplayer. But for Singleplayer it gives one of the best possibility to play individualy. I dont think you need to balanche the monsters for the new skillsystem. Porposal: With higher level the prices for gambling become more expensiv. This should be too for the scrolls Another way; to make the vendorinventar not refilling, so you can only buy a scroll once by the same vendor. Threfor making the droprate for scrolls a little higher, or given every boss a scroll to drop. Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The "Damage+1" Crafting-Modifier seem not work. Instead you can divide this modifier in two. 1.) +1 maximum Damage 2.) +1 minimum Damage Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jounk33, please use the edit button instead of double posting if you were the last person to post to a thread. It helps keep the forums clean. Thank you. Malachai _________________ Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jounk33 wrote (View Post): The "Damage+1" Crafting-Modifier seem not work. Instead you can divide this modifier in two. 1.) +1 maximum Damage 2.) +1 minimum Damage When you say "doesn't work" what kind of item were you trying to add it to? A melee weapon, a bow, which? The modifier was actualy suposed to be adding to both min and max. (but it wasn't, fixed for next release) -Quatl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [EDIT: For those of you who, like me , jump to the last page of threads. Version Beta 1.4c is now availible. You can find a link in my first post along with the updated change log. Please bang it around a bit, and tell me if any of the parts fall off . ] Jounk33 Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Meleewaepons The modifier is shown but the Damagevalue dont change. Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jounk33 wrote (View Post): Meleewaepons The modifier is shown but the Damagevalue dont change. It should work in 14c. I still have to check it to make sure. Phlebiac Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am afraid I must say there is something wrong with the tome again. This is what happens when you put in scrolls: Scroll 1 = No requirements Scroll 2 = Level 1 Scroll 3 = Level 2 Scroll 4 = Level 3 Scroll 5 = Level 4 Scroll 6 = Level 5 Scroll 7 = No requirements Scroll 8 = Level 1 and so on. Right now, I have only level 1 Skills on my tome. Edit: I have tried a little more and it seems be be that this only happens as long as you put in only scrolls from on character. In my case it was all necromancer skills. Once I put in a Scroll of Might, the requirements jumped up to 12 and didn't roll over any more. I then made a new tome and put in seven different scrolls from each character and after that, the skill level requirement was 7, as it should be. ________________ Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is possible that there is a "hole" someplace. The "fixes" involve alot of altered recipies so it is very likely that some are not quite right. In adition there is always the chance that my logic remains "incomplete." It is most likely a problem with either certain skills, who's recipies are entered wrong, or with level one recipies in general (I'm goint to look at those now and see if it's just an oversight.) What were the exact skills in question (if you remember) specificaly the 6th, 7th and 8th scrolls you added? [EDIT 2: Did you happen to add that might skill in at level 12? (i mean was it the 12th skill you added?) If so it makes sense with the way things apear to be busted. It should not have anything to do with class.] [EDIT: I think i see it, the problem is a logic problem. This "should" happen when you go for alot of low level skills ... I think it's fixible though. I'll work on it. I'd still like to know the specific skills i asked for above if you remember. Just in case there's more than one problem] [EDIT 3: At least the jumps are downward (potentialy cheater-ish) now, which is better than upward (potentialy devestateing.)] ------------EDIT 4--------------- OK, I think these rules may work: 1. If SkillLevelreq < TomeLevel -- Return the Tome and Scroll 2. If This is the first time adding a skill of SkillLevelreq, -- Add skill -- apply repairs to levelreq -- Mark this skill level added (hidden) -- Add +1 to TomeLevel 3. If the above conditions are not valid -- Add skill -- Add +1 level req -- Add +1 to TomeLevel ------------------------------------------------------------------- [EDIT]: Ok, I've made the modifications that will be come v1.4d in a few minutes. The tome behaves itself in the following tests: (tested on amazon skills only, but should be general) Case 1 lots of level one skills Case 2 Preventing adding a skill before the tome has the required point total Case 3 Adding 7 level one skills then adding 3 lvl 6 skills Case 4 adding 6 level one skills then adding 1 lvl 6 skill then 2 more lvl 1 skills Tests 3 and 4 would have resulted in a lvl req that was too low in 1.4c. The tome is (hopefuly) functional now. This should not break characters from 1.4c, It won't however, fix any tomes that are currently broken. I'd recomend replaceing your tomes, by passing a fresh one via the shared stash. IndianaMaggot Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- YAY I can finally play again thanks so much for all the help and thanks for an awesome mod... but may I make a suggestion for the skill trees... Why not have class specific passive skills that way each class plays a little bit different but almost the same... you could make skill point books for 500 gold or something that grant 1 skill point just like the Radament skill reward book... just my _________________ Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IndianaMaggot wrote (View Post): YAY I can finally play again thanks so much for all the help and thanks for an awesome mod... but may I make a suggestion for the skill trees... Why not have class specific passive skills that way each class plays a little bit different but almost the same... you could make skill point books for 500 gold or something that grant 1 skill point just like the Radament skill reward book... just my Great! I'm glad it works for you now... I was troubling myself about your difficulties this morning without any new ideas. It makes me a bit nervous that we never really figured out the problem. Hopefuly it was just a fluke no one else will have similar troubles. Your idea about the trees is interesting, I'll think about it. (My thinking has generaly been twards makeing the "classes" into cosmetic options only.) For the near future I'm focused purely on makeing sure the tome behaves itself, and then onto confirming every crafting recipe (not looking forward to this part.) ------ If that infernal tome works now I'll overjoyed, although I have my suspisions that it's still hideing something to bonk me with when I'm not looking [EDIT: v1.4d is now availible, see my first post here for the link.] IndianaMaggot Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Your idea about the trees is interesting, I'll think about it. (My thinking has generaly been twards makeing the "classes" into cosmetic options only.) The only problem with that is that there is no need for 7 classes then... I was only talking about having 5-10 skill per class and the max level should only be from 5-10... also the skills should probably have a decient lvl requirement like 20-30 and cost around 10000-50000 ... but the skills would have to be worth it... _________________ Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IndianaMaggot wrote (View Post): The only problem with that is that there is no need for 7 classes then... You're right there wouldn't be any "need" for 7 classes, I'm not sure that it's important for there to be a need other than enjoyment. IndianaMaggot wrote (View Post): I was only talking about having 5-10 skill per class and the max level should only be from 5-10... also the skills should probably have a decient lvl requirement like 20-30 and cost around 10000-50000 ... but the skills would have to be worth it... These details make it sound even more interesting as a concept. The only reason I could have for not doing something like this, is that it is related to the very thing I don't want to do ... That is: Telling people how they should be playing the game. The underling philosophy for this mod is freedom to create. Create items and equipment that you want, and the "class" that you want. If you want to be a little woman with a giant sword who drinks the blood of your enamies ... well then you probly need a theripist, but I'm not going to hold you back. Want to play a huge beefy norseman who frolics with woodland creatures, and casts spells? Great more power too you. The choice of apearance is in some sense a game mechanic in and of itself. It can change the emotional astetic of the game. People who don't care can always just pick randomly. However if I add back in a mechanic that forces (or even enchourages) a certain binding between the character and how they must be played, then I'm doing something other than Legacy of the Horadrim. Haveing said that I do think it is an interesting idea. Some form of it might even have a place in LotH. Just not a form of it that is bound to the graphics, of one character class or another. -Quatl Fish of Muu Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Making classes purely cosmetic creates a lot more issues. The sorc and barbarian both have the came casting speeds, but the barbarian can dual wield. Because you got rid of +skill items, the barb can just use any two weapons and make them both caster weapons making him better than the sorc is every way. The ability to dual wield beats the inability to dual wield. A casting sorc/barb have no other differences. I think you should rip apart the skill system that exists and make it a hybrid with the skill trees, or possibly even innate skills like older versions of Median. Some ideas would be... put the elemental mastery skills back on the sorc but tone them down and make them lvl 1. Maybe something like only 1 or 2% per level. Possibly even make it so only one can be learned (once you learn one, the other two will be locked). This way anyone can use any of the elemental skills, but the sorc uses them better. Put skeleton mastery on the necro only. Anyone can summon, but necros do it better. Tone down the auras, or give them only to the paladin (They REALLY break the game now). Put Battle Orders only on the barbarian. This makes each character different, but only with support skills. All the attack skills are available to everyone. The necro wouldn't be as good a caster as a sorc, but he still might want to use Glacial Spike for supporting his skelly army. This makes your job a lot easier. You don't have to rebalance all the skills knowing that everyone gets access to every aura. Might/concentration gives melee chars 3x damage while giving summoners about 50x. Not everyone blows past synergies and just gets 1 spell and conviction. Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's nice to know I can count on you to find uber where I would never have thought to look Muu Especialy interesting about dual weild makeing the barb a better mage. And here I had been thinking the only real reason to play a barb was to dual wield melee. Your other coments are good too, Auras are pertty abusive if one wants them to be. I'm reluctent to talk about specific skill alterations because of The BPFtNF... ----------------------------------------------- The Big Plan for the Near Future(tm) Skill Tome mechanics will be finalized (versions 1.4d-1.4X) - Includeing a cap of 20 points per skill, as per vanilla - Get Skill descriptions onto skill scrolls - Make the skill icons stand out a bit more, from each other - (already started but there are alot) Alchemical Enhancement (versions 1.5X) - Confirm every recipe, and fix broken reagents - Some moderate rebalanceing of gold and quintessence costs will happen - Fix the "Rainbow of Confusion" Effect in reagent vendor inventories - Probly images based on item type compatibility + element colors Gems will be rebalanced to make thier cost benifit ratios a bit lower (versions 1.6X) - I'm thinking about twice as cost effective as the alchimical enhancements - Costs and Efects could go up or down depending, proly some of each Clean up Loose Ends (Versions 1.6X) - Unique/Set items, and Runewords with invalid skill mods clensed this could mean removal/substitution/ (especialy +skilltab which is useless) - Put back the +skill type bonuses on items in a way that works Declare Legacy of the Horadrim (Vanilla flavor) Complete - This version will be alowed to float around unmolested - This is for those who just want a "better" vanilla than vanilla Begin the "Real" work on the mod Legacy of the Horadrim(Steak -n- Potato Flavor) Develop a Unified Theory of "Balance" This will involve answering these and other questions: - What is "advancement", and how does one acomplish it? - How are monsters, levels, skills, stats, and equipment related? - What are the proper roles of melee, ranged and magic characters? - How do various skill structures work? - What kinds of things should "spells" do? - What kinds of things do "Melee Skills" do? - What kinds of things do "Summons" do? - What the heck is a mastery any how? - How are Auras different from Passives? - Do synergies not suck in any universe? - How does/should items influince skill function, use, and power? - What are the atributes for, how do they influince things? - What is the proper tension between various stratigic types? - What is(are) the purpose(s) of monsters? - How do they serve (or not) these purpose(s)? - How many diffrent ways are there to kill them and be killed by them? - What is the function of Gold? - Why are(n't) quests boring? - Are the areas and their sequence part of my boredom? - many many more Then in acordence with the UToB Redesign/alteration of various elements of the game. Skills, spells, critters, levels, equipment etc... This is when I'll start thinking in terms of specifics. In other words I'd like to make my changes non-randomly. Not based on what I think is cool from moment to moment, and especialy not in terms of reactive ping-pong style rebalanceing. Rather based on a consistant philosophy about how I want to play the game, and the emotions I'd like to experience while doing so. Things I am sure I don't want: "Hard" balance (as much as possible every character should be different and effective) Zero point strategies (sort of like zero-point energy, theoreticaly infinite but boreing) Lack of reward for creativity of the player. Boredom Quatl Post subject: Re: Legacy of the Horadrim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm going to contradict myself (nothing new there ) I would like to discuss an idea about skills. In particular masteries. The basic jist is that rather than (or in adition to perhaps) investing points into masteries, each skill point invested into a skill would add to the relevent mastery or masteries. For example each point in fire bolt might add to fire mastery, bolt mastery, and spell mastery. A point in ice arrow might add to cold mastery, bow mastery, and ranged mastery. These masteries would not be nearly as potent as the vanila ones. And there would be alot more of them. So each skill adds a small amount to the effectiveness of many other skills. And as the overlaps form a sort of colage in skill effectiveness space this should aid both specialized characters and generalists. I think, if done carefuly, something like this could be a good substitute for synergies, and traditional masteries. The key is to have the effect of each skill point's contribution be fairly small. And construct the overlaps so they conform to "reality." Meaning the skills conceptual interconnections become real interconnections to some degree. So Fire Specialist can mean multiple things, fire spell caster, fire melee/ranged fighter, fire summoner or any combination. For example an elemental melee generalist would still gain benifit from stacking multibple melee skills (from the melee mastery adds.) But this character putting a few points into an elemental bolt would not make that bolt as cool as the mixed elemental spell caster's bolt, and even less so in comparison to a single element bolt spell specilist. Of course this idea should be thought about in the context of a very different set of skills. The skill set would have to be carefuly crafted along with the masteries to make this viable, and avoid uber-power cracks for players to fall between. This also requires that combat situations be more varied, in the sense of being easier to deal with useing one catagory of strategy than another. So that the broad skill types that are currently mostly pointless (like bolt spells) become fun, and the over powered ones (like area effect spells) become less monotinous. Enchourageing a median between specilization and generalization (perhaps 2-4 basic tactical styles/elements per character.) This is what I ment about haveing a unified philosophy. Everything is related to every other thing, and the design ideals and details arise from these relationships rather than being ad hoc. This is the direction I'm currently leaning twards for after the basic version is "complete." --Quatl